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dWAR killing Pennat Chase


dWAR killing Pennat Chase

example: playing Belanger over Ripken maybe as a late inning def replacement..absurd...there should be a Rookie League for 1st yr players

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Isn’t playing a better defender late smart? It’s done in real MLB.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

HorseHide,

You've played almost 6,000 games. How could you consider yourself a rookie.

By now, you should have been in some leagues with some very good players. Just by paying attention, you had the opportunity to learn some good strategies in both drafting and line-ups.

You would never have had those learning opportunities by sitting at the kid's table.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Dempsey is right, but there could be an argument for a league for those who struggle. This is somewhat aligned with VIP's recent suggestion of a premiere player's league.

This isn't an easy concept to execute and make clear, but I am starting to see the argument for leagues that focus on player skill. It's just not a simple thing to roll out.

This poster is mostly in Favorite Teams leagues, which are just brutal for new players because the vets have mastered the team/year combos that work... but new players are not going to understand that.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Maybe the "beginner" leagues could just be leagues with 6-8 bots?

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

I hate to be blunt, but we all learned how to compete on this site the same way - we got our asses kicked and then figured out how we were getting our asses kicked. Then we did the ass kicking 😎
The Sheik

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

I agree with the Sheik. I am a first year player, and my first few teams were below .500. Quickly figured out defense is helpful. As for dWar killing PC, did anyone say to the Orioles from 1968-1975, your defense is killing baseball? Half that team couldn't hit .250, but pitching and D won.

The 2019 Astros are what is hurting PC, especially Fav Team leagues. Went to join one today, already had 3 Astros teams in it, so I passed.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

This thread is absurd,one of the greatest players in MLB History should not be coming in late in games.What if I tried to bring in Belanger,B. Robinson and Paul Blair for Ripken,Schmidt, and Harper when they are obviously better defenders? Would somebody call the cyber-cops?

If I brought in the Wizard HOF Ozzie Smith forA-Rod or Jeter would I do a dime in the Cyber-Prison? Very hard to understand what the initial poster is saying but clearly he did not view the Orioles games from the late 60's into the 70's .As far as defensive position players Bench and Belanger were the 2 biggest names in baseball in that period of time bro and defense wins games.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Brooksie for Schmidt is very debatable as far as an upgrade. Schmidt is one of the all-time glovemen at 3rd. Brooks had the hype; Schmidt has the results.

Belanger and Blair hands down shut down gloves.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Dempsey I would challenge you to watch the 1970 World Series and then reconsider whether Brooks had the hype or was exactly what they said he was,Schmidt a good glove and probably the best 3B of all-time but I do not put him at the same level as Brooks as a defensive 3rd Basemen.But back to Belanger.



Mark "The Blade" Belanger
8 Gold Gloves
When he retired had the highest fielding percentage ever for a SS (977)
Considered tbe Greatest Shortstop in the World during his career by Rich Dauer (Baltimore Oriole)
The most electrifying defensive Shortstop of his Generation.



So there are definitely other points of view on Belanger than the one held by the original poster and as Casey said you could look it ☝.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Warrior,

I lived through that series. I grew up a Giants fan in NL and an O's fan in the AL. The O's from 65 though the early 70's were my boys. I'd still go Schmidt though. (Like I said, that was the debatable one.).

That Baltimore D helped those 4 20 game winners for sure. Don't think they could have replicated that with any other set of players that season (or maybe any other).

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

I think the (PC) game has done a great job bringing to light why guys like Mark Belanger had long valued careers in MLB. Before DWar, we used to use that one Lou Gehrig season where he slugged .700 and had a secondary SS position and get away with it. Now if you don't have defense up the middle, then you're not making the playoffs and that seems pretty realistic.

I will point out one flaw is pointing out how many gold gloves Belanger has. Gold gloves have been handed out on reputation alone and often don't correlate to what the numbers tell us. In Belanger's case they do correlate for the most part - his last two were probably based on reputation. But lots of examples (ahem Derek Jeter 5 GGs) that don't make sense. So I leave gold gloves out of any conversation about defensive value

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Ok the Orioles were also my favorite team for a while when I was I really young,I was born in Cleveland and the Indians stunk plus the Orioles had McNally (I am Irish)

The 4 20 game winners were Palmer,Cuellar,McNally, and Dobson and that was in 71 when they ended up losing to the Pirates. Anyway in 1970 when Weaver won his 1 Ring watching the games I came to the conclusion and so did the announcers,the Orioles and the Orioles opponent the Reds that Brooks singlehandedly stole the Show with timely hits and incredible glovemanship. There was a strong consensus opinion that Brooks represented a type of ideal 3rd Basemen who could make unbelievable plays defensively and also provide clutch hits.


I believe we have to agree to disagree here.

Brooks Robinson 980 fielding percentage at 3rd in 1967 plus 4.16 D-War and 4.47 D-War at 3rd in 1968

Mike Schmidt's best fielding percentage until 1986 was 964 in 1978 and never in his career did his D-War go over 2.49. Only later when Schmidt was old and presumably did not attempt to make as many plays as he would of when he was younger did he have a great fielding percentage of 987.

So in conclusion I have to ask myself how Brooks could have better fielding percentages in an earlier time period than Schmidt's and also have such significantly higher D-War stats.Granted the D-Wars in the 60' are good in general but my memory, the fielding percentages and the D-War stats are all heavily in favor of Brooks.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Yes gold gloves are debatable but since my concern was that Belanger could be construed to be a non-entity I introduced that into the thread as a proven claim instead of other more subjective measurements that probably hold more value.

The facts are that Belanger won the Triple Crown for the worst stats from a regular player offensively and still won a lot of games for the Orioles in that season. And thru his whole career he kept playing though he was correctly thought to be a weak hitter,did Earl Weaver keep playing him in spite of his shortcomings as a hitter? Yes and for me that is a good explanation of his value as a defensive force and enough proof of why it is not absurd to use him as a defensive replacement.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Note for Defense Enthusiasts

1970 was the year that Mark Belanger won the Triple Crown as the worst hitter in baseball in 3 Major Categories and also the year the Orioles beat the Reds in the World Series.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Now there might be an intriguing concept for a custom league.

Only players who finished at the bottom of a major hitting/pitching category for their team in any season.

Can somebody get a hit here? Can somebody throw a damn strike? I can hear Stengel now.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Please contact me if somebody makes that happen,it would be interesting.😊

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Bad News Bears League has a concept kinda like that

pitchers must have a Whip of at least 1.40
Hitters BA cannot exceed .275 combined BA and OPS max .999
Max speed 7
No Cy Young or HOF's
In season 10 now

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

That is interesting,will keep it in mind.😊

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Great stuff Warrior - I didn't know Belanger won the triple crown of bad hitting - that's great.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Why is that not referred to as the Triple Frown??
(or the less PC, Cripple Crown)

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Big rookie mistake, I made the same mistake when I started, dont look at the players name, look at the stats. A name will not win you any games the stats will.
Baseball is about pitching and defense.
If you score you may win, if the other team never scores you will never lose.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Triple Frown yes ,however you put it Weaver knew he had a weak hitter with a terrific glove and used him as a weapon.😊

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

If you were here when aggregate Range Factor was the only "defense" in town, and you chose your catcher based on which pitching staffs rang up the most hitters (for the putouts) or who had little playing time late in games with high K9 RP's, and drooled over OF/1B (remember Brandon Moss?) because their time at 1st made them huge OF assets with 2.5+ RF's.

That's when defense was broken.

This what we have now, I love it so much. It's far more accurate to great pitching and solid fundamentals (Good FLD%/dWAR) winning baseball games.

As Krtyler said those 'little Lou Gehrig cheats' and such had us in a much worse off place than we are now.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Sounds great ; but , I'm getting rolled in the WS like a fat drunk by a team with nothing but big bats and Jimmie Fox playing 3B LOL !!!
Last Game (Spirit)
Last Game (Scooters)Next Game (Spirit)
Next Game (Scooters)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
x
R
H
E
LOB
Spirit 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 6
Scooters 1 0 0 3 3 0 2 1 0 0 10 11 0 4
GWRBI: Trout

Spirit AB R H RBI 2B 3B HR BB K SH SB CS E D AVG
T.Cobb DH 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .326
C.Klein LF 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 -1 .272
R.Carew 1B 4 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .272
C.Ripken SS 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 .216
D.Erstad CF 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .143
B.Robinson 3B 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .200
N.Markakis RF 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .136
G.Carter C 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .222
F.Frisch 2B 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 .248
Totals: 30 0 5 0 0 1 0 2 1 1 0 0 0 0

Scooters AB R H RBI 2B 3B HR BB K SH SB CS E D AVG
M.Trout LF 4 3 2 2 0 0 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 .229
L.Gehrig 1B 4 2 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .284
J.Foxx 3B 3 3 3 4 0 0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .260
J.Thome DH 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 .259
M.Ott RF 4 1 3 3 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .222
W.Mays CF 4 1 2 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .241
E.Banks 2B 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .196
M.Cochrane C 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .232
L.Boudreau SS 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .236
Totals: 35 10 11 10 1 0 6 3 4 0 0 0 0 0

Spirit IP H HR R ER BB K WP HB PC ERA
P.Alexander L 6.2 8 5 9 9 3 4 0 0 128 3.57
B.Harvey 1.0 3 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 26 3.80
W.Davis 0.1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 2.86
Totals: 8.0 11 6 10 10 3 4 0 0 157

Scooters IP H HR R ER BB K WP HB PC ERA
G.Maddux W 7.2 5 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 102 3.78
H.Wilhelm 1.1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 2.00
Totals: 9.0 5 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 113

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

guess i don't see that team as only "big bats." he's got a high dwar CF and 2 middle infielders with super high dwar, plus Trout. He's giving up defense where teams historically do.

Re: Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

How is he getting away with using Foxx at 3B without a ton of errors at the Hot Corner ?

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

Never mind , Foxx has a secondary position of 3B.

Re: dWAR killing Pennat Chase

First came here in 2014, was terrible in auto leagues (did the customary griping to Guy), went to custom leagues and had success, ran leagues, left after about a year.
Came back this year during lockdown. Only do Favorites Teams now because I prefer the lack of personal drama and freedom to move around. My point is, I've seen the changes and I think dWAR is the best of them.

When you consider what (I think?) we're doing- taking players from over 150 years of history and putting them all together to establish a 'mean' without outrageous results, I'd say this is as close as that gets. PC is different than it was 5 years ago, but better. I've yet to really grasp that because I still like using certain franchises, my overall record will attest I'm not consumed with winning. This has always been a pleasant distraction to me, like I think sports is SUPPOSED to be.
Bravo, Bacci.