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Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Actual Stats

Compiled Stats

Look at the Batting Averages, This is an ATG and the team shown is 84-55 -

HOW can you be 84-55 with those compiled stats and a certainly not overpowering Pitching staff.

Literally no one is allowed to hit anymore it appears and I am seeing this more and more- anyone else?

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

That team looks pretty strong to me. Any complaining about Dwar needs to consider the alternatives. Previously Range Factor would turn mediocre pitchers into ace level guys and incorrectly inflate the value of players.

BJ Surhoff was perhaps the most valuable OF in the 1990's league because of his inflated RF due to playing a chunk of a season at 1B. Same went for Killebrew in mid century leagues. His range factor made him the best 3B in the league by 2 times. Yup. Twice as good in the field as Brooks Robinson. In reality, Killebrew was a terrible defender at 3B. Dwar reflects that.

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

I wont argue with you about Range because I only have used DWar and have no experience, but the low BA is concerning, there’s 6 guys who qualify for slump buster 140 games in !!

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Any argument about dWar needs to include a similar argument about HR power and speed and bullpen strength, etc. There are teams who load up on sluggers, or speed demons, or pitching, and their team stats reflect that - insane totals that we would never see in real life. But I don’t see complaints about too many HRs when someone loads up with Bonds and Ruth and Sosa and McGwire, etc. Because generally we like offence better than defence. And many other Sims out there haven’t had the same focus on defence as PC has had.

I think it’s great that we have such a strong defensive component to this SIM. Not everyone uses it, but for those who do, it’s great. And you won’t win if you only pay attention to defence and have zero offence. That’s the way it should be. But you will also have trouble if you only pay attention to offence and have no defence.

Plus, this is a Sim and not real life. Nobody in real life has ever put together a team with Griffey and Ozzie and Frisch and Rolen, and Adam Jones, etc. If they had, who’s to say they wouldn’t win 120 games and the WS? But I do love the chance to play around with that idea here in Sim-land.

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

That team still is 6th in the league in runs scored... and 1st in runs allowed... so no wonder their in 1st place...

That team allowed 50 walks less than the 2nd lowest total in that league. 150 less walks that the second best pitching staff.

Their dice is still well in front of everybody.

On top of that, they have an outstanding defense...

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

8 of the 12 team ERAs are over 4, the rest 3.3 and higher so pitching and and defense aren’t too dominant. This is really how PC has always been, low AVG but the teams still score. Your team has crazy high dwar at SS 2B CF 3B and still Cole and your other two stud SPs have ERAs over 3. Your other two SP had to be slump busted. Dwar definitely makes a difference but I wouldn’t say that team is doing anything out of the ordinary.

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

I think the reason you hear people saying dWAR is overblown is that it comes across as more opaque to people. We all know stats like HR, RBI, 2B, but "D" is not familiar to everyone.

When I started on the site, it was range factor, then dWAR, and somewhere there's verbiage on the site about dWAR can take hits away, etc. I tended to think about it like "OK, a guy can take away a hit, that's not a bad thing to consider." But I put together many teams with guys with dWARs like -0.92 b/c they hit really well. Then, their cumulative average often ended up low, they made errors (FLDG % not dWAR) and had negative dWAR numbers, and my teams won from 65-85 games in many cases.
Once I really got on board with the idea that there's this number, D, that literally means a base hit taken away, meaning you can consider it like a base hit and thus have players who, under that formula, have b.a.'s like .380 and ranks of 4, I started to focus on D a lot more.
Then, I started putting together these teams with a starting SS with a rank of 7, 2B maybe 12, and dWARs like 4.2, and I'd win 90 games and go to the postseason, while some of these guys hit .180.
Once you see a number in the guy's statline, what Gus is saying makes sense: if Bonds has 72 homers and he hits 80 on the season in a league and his owner has a boost for lefthanders, that makes sense. Therefore if you see that a player had a "D" of 49 in a season, saving 49 hits, then his performance just makes sense. But that doesn't appear on his statline (real stats) that people use to choose players, instead it's 2.09, etc. You have to look at league results to see the "D."

However, there's the question of (and I don't know if this is based on real-life results or not) how that D gets to be--how the 3.02 is determined, and how that translates into 49 robbed hits. That would be where someone could say it's "too powerful." But maybe that IS realistic.

I don't have an opinion on whether or not it should be considered "too powerful" or not. I look at it as an imperative to look at the D stats ALONG WITH the fielding percentage, or to calculate D - E.

But I once kind of blew it off, and a player's dWAR has no bearing on his rank, yet a huge bearing on game results, so I get why people have to impression the OP has.

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

That's a good point, J-underground. If dWAR could be included as a fourth factor into position player rank, that might solve some of these issues.

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

I like DWAR the way it is now, it gives you a chance against people that select all the high ranked players. Many times people blindly select the highest rank players and wonder why the dont win, I know, i was one of them early on.
The team that is mention at the beginning also has a pretty good pitching group as well, so they are not winning just on DWAR alone.
We had a sign in our high school locker room, I am sure many of you may have had something similar, it said, if you score you may win, if they never score you will never lose, defense wins championships.

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Mark Belanger played in the majors for 18 seasons despite having a career .228 BA and a .580 OPS.

He played so long because of his great defense, and is a valuable PC player because of his DWAR.

So DWAR reflects this real life value and i am all for it...

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

bip I wholeheartedly agree, and it is for this reason that in my mind Omar Vizquel absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Speaking of Omar (#11), it brings up another great SS who is surprisingly missing from the both the Mid-Century and ATG pools: Luis Aparicio.

How could he be overlooked here?

BTW: Good call on Omar. He should be in the HOF.

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

1st off I wasn't complaining, in fact my post was a question.

I also agree that the ERA of the pitchers and runs per game are on average.

And even the best pitchers or hitters normally never face the absolute best, day in day out, for both sides, so hitters should be below their real stats on average and ditto for pitchers, especially in ATG Leagues.

I obviously value defense, I passed up some better hitters in favor of defense and used waivers or FA picks to get others.

I really don't think DWar plays by infielders on grounders should result in being DP though, that's one thing I would change.

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Turning double plays is also an important factor of DWAR calculations... and part of runs saved by a defender...

Ozzie Smith will just convert more double plays than a regular Joe at ss is just a fact, that's also part of why he is so good defensively and why his defense has an impact on a baseball game...

so yes, dwar plays should clearly include double even a more important rate than it currently does...

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

The current set up is designed to strictly turn outs into hits or hits into outs.

It doesn't say its intended to do anything else, but I think that once the Hit is turned into an out, the out is then treated like any other out, which can result in a Double Play.

Think about it, if the IF makes a diving catch or gets to a ball that should have been a hit, a miraculous type of play, then maybe he gets the lead man, or just barely gets him at 1B- He does not turn 2 as often as happens on PC - so instead of turning a hit into an out, it turns a hit into 2 outs?

I just think outs created by Dwar plays should be resolved differently than regular outs. At the least, the odds of turning that out into a DP should be rare, and its not.

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

If the DWAR component was too powerful wouldn't there be a slew of triple plays ?

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

NO - because there are NO Triple Plays in PC.

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Why are you assuming a hit saved is some miraculous play where they barely get someone out? It’s related to range. So that high dwar SS gets to a ball someone else doesn’t, and then he turns DP. I never understood your argument against it. This happens all the time, great IF gets to a ball up the middle, flips to 2nd or steps on base, starts double play . Other IF can’t even get to it, allows hit.

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

I was not assuming all DWar plays are miraculous, some are due to better range which allow them to get to a ball, sometimes it results in taking a hit away, some times it results in cutting down the lead runner, sometimes it simply results in a ball not getting into the OF and prevents a run scoring, sometimes it even results in a DP.

Same with OF, better positioning and ability to read balls allows them to run down a ball a lesser fielder would not, or the ability to make either a diving or leaping catch.

My point was merely that perhaps the % of hits robbed by IF, which are then turned into Double plays, should be reduced, It honestly seems like 40% or better of robbed hits with a man on base are turned into double plays and that seems too high.

Conversely, on a great leaping or diving catch there could be a few more doubles runner off base plays when the runner thought there was no way the ball would be caught.

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

why are we still posting about this? nothing is going to be done about it. we have made amazing cases in previous threads to have this updated and changed.

Edit: it is on the commish of your leagues to keep dwar in balance so you have a functional league. If you have a bad/lazy commish most likely your player pool will be garbage. Thus you will have all kinds of broken dwar players.

Re: Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

Commissioners can also just dump dwar by using Bulk Update to set everyone to zero or a standard number...

I am not sure about the "amazing cases" to have this changed... every argument had a counter argument.

Re: Is DWar TOO Powerful??

@guy I think many different people have made great cases to have "adjustments" made to dwar and how it is working within the sim.

You have made some adjustments to the site to empower commissioners of leagues to make the needed changes as they see fit in each league. I have noticed most commissioners have not acted on the updates you added, don't care or are lazy with how they run the league.

I do think dwar should depreciate in value at the time the player declines. Maybe you have added that feature but I have not noticed it?

Dwar is mostly a custom league problem for those league commish to deal with.

That is part of the reason why I am saying like I did above... why are we still complaining?