Existing User? Login here!


Back to Boards

I am confused


I am confused

So Harold Baines - a nice player but a DH amd not not someone I ever heard an announcer describe as " Future Hall of Famer" gets in the Hall of fame - But Edgar Martinez another MOSTLY DH isn't??

On Statistics alone Martinez is WAY better

Baines 21yrs. .289 BA - .465 SLG - .820 OPS 38.7 WAR 384 HR

Martinez 18yrs. .312 BA - .515 SLG - .933 OPS 68.4 WAR 309 HR

C'mon....

Re: I am confused

Getting into HOF... LA LA Land!

Oops... sorry... it was moonlight! I mean harold baines! I mean Edgar Martinez!

Re: Re: I am confused

Avila, did someone drop you repeatedly on your head when you were very small?

The best description I have for your posts are Literary Diarrhea or the incoherent ramblings of a troll.

Re: I am confused

Baines was elected via the "Today's Game Committee", not the writers.

If Martinez falls off (which probably won't happen), that's likely how he and others will get in.

Re: Re: I am confused

Yes, and I do understand there is a difference, but in fairness, I think Baines ever even had CLOSE to the total of votes he would have needed from the Baseball Writers- Seems kind of silly on their part to so openly show their disdain for the Baseball Writers.

That being said, the B.W. has also ignored some guys, Jim Rice comes to mind, and made him wait quite a while all because he wasn't exactly a charmer or easy interview.

But they eventually did the right thing by Rice, in the late 70's and early 80's he was one of the most feared RH batters in the League.

I wonder how many absolutely crushed line drives he hit off the wall in Fenway would have been homers - He definitely would have had a higher total - but he could hit it out ANYWHERE.



Re: I am confused

He was just short of the magical 3000, only lefty in the top 10 for hits and rbi in the 80's, and compares as favorably with a lot of HOF of his era + he was quite the most consistent of them all...

He did it for 20 years in a way different era , where putting extraterestrial numbers wasn't quite possible.

We can't compare numbers of these 2 distinctive era...

Re: Re: I am confused

Oh, don't get me wrong, I remember him and he was an exceptional, professional hitter, he should not be in the Hall of Fame if Todd Helton isn't though. yes Coors Field greatly added to his numbers, but 17 years of Helton is worth way more to me than Baines.

Re: I am confused

I'm tired of hearing about Coors Field - Yankee Stadium, Polo Grounds, Baker Bowl and Hilltop among others were just as hitter friendly and there are plenty of Yankees, Giants and Phillies in the HOF. Chuck Klein - The Hoosier Hammer - played in tiny Baker Bowl for much of his career and was inducted in '80. Stop using Coors as an excuse!!

- The Sheik

Re: Re: I am confused

In fairness the park they played in doesn’t matter to me, but I anticipated someone bringing it up to dispute Helton.

Re: I am confused

I don't see it as a matter of Baines being more deserving than Helton or not.

It takes time to get elected, and sometimes guys are just overlooked quickly and are disappearing from the ballots...
You also have to compare ERA's the players played in...

Helton will surely get in there...but he has to go on the waiting list...

This new way of getting guys in the HOF is a great way to remember great successful contributor to the hall. Baines was an elite hitter of this game for 20 years... He played in an ERA where pilling up numbers was not as easy as the juiced ERA that followed him...

Baines is a top ten of his era and probably the most successful an consistent Lefty hitter of his ERA, Helton is in there along with around 100 other guys who pilled up great stats in his era...

But if you you wan't to get to ballparks...

Helton carrer away stats : Avg 287 / SLG .469 reflects the real quality of hitter he was...

Helton's home stats are just ridiculous and can't really be compare : AVG .345 / SLG .607, quite the indication that something is wrong with the Coors field...

Baines is pretty much up there with Helton, with an almost carbon copy of Helton's away stats... an AVG of .289 / SLG .467...and did it for couple of more years than Helton did...

You could also make a case for Carlos Delgado then, if you compare an average year :

Harold Baines 162 game AVG:
.289/.356/.465 with 22 HR, 93 RBI, 74 runs, 164 hits, 28 doubles

Carlos Delgado:
.280/.383/.546 with 38 HR, 120 RBI, 99 runs, 162 hits, 38 doubles

Baines fell 134 hits short of the 3000 mark, that milestone gets an automatic HOF induction...only 134hits short... players being on work stoppage / strike in 1981, and 1994 cost him that milestone, and all the debate that blemish is Induction.

Baines got ejected from the ballots so soon with a maximum of around 5% votes because he was short by 134 hits... is quite a shame on the original voters...

it's all about the ERA guys played in...

Baines do have fair numbers compared to the guys from 2000's... but when you put is number vs the guy's from the 1980's... he his simply part of the elite club of 1980's...

Re: Re: I am confused

Problem is, we didn't know of Park Effects 60 years ago. We knew parks were bigger, smaller, took away a few HRs a year, etc.

But we didn't have EXACTLY how much run environments were affected right in front of us. Call it data overload. We now have every split imaginable. It works to some player's detriment when you start splitting hairs.

Its the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of Pretty Good. I love that baseball doesn't let every Todd, Dick, and Harold in like other sports. I love the arguments. The selection process. I think its now counterproductive in that voters can see a running total, and may not vote for a supposed 'surefire HoF'er' because another guy can "use the votes". But they're getting better at honoring guys before they're dead.

When I think Jack Morris, Harold Baines and others though...Hall of Famer NEVER comes (came) to mind. It didn't while watching them play, it didn't in the years that followed, and it still doesn't despite their inclusion.

Re: I am confused

I agree. Harold Baines was a good hitter, but no way a Hall of Fame hitter. There were four members of the committee who either managed him, signed him, or paid him. Ridiculous and embarrassing.

Re: Re: I am confused

Baines was the best lefty hitter of the 80's, his numbers are up there with George Brett, Baines with more rbi and hr in less ab and a slightly lower avg...

Re: I am confused

Consistency and longevity have to count for something. If you play for 21 years and hit nearly .300 in just about every single year, I am fine if you are in the Hall of Fame.