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How important are saves...


How important are saves...

The topic came up in one of the leagues I am in, and it's something I have always wondered myself. How important of a stat is Saves? Talking about real life baseball, or on PC.

I'm not necessarily saying it is or isn't important, what say you?

Re: How important are saves...

(Replying to my on comment, good grief...)

but also, in the "old days" when it wasn't uncommon for a reliever to pitch 3 innings for his save, is that more impressive than a one inning save?

Just random thoughts...

Re: How important are saves...

Personally, I'm not a fan of the save stat. Most teams use their best RP as a closer. Sometimes it makes sense for them to pitch the final inning in a close game but often times they might better serve the team if they came into the game earlier. For instance with runners on base in an earlier inning, or against the heart of a teams lineup in the 7th or 8th inning. I feel like teams would win more games over a season if they used their best RP in the most high leverage situations and not save them for a save opportunity. Similar to what the Indians did with Andrew Miller a few years ago.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

Save = Win. Enough said.

Re: How important are saves...

My thought are summed up in these articles:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles..
https://bleacherreport.com/articles..
A save is an overrated stat.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

Let me put it another way. No team in the entire 144 years of baseball has ever lost a game when a save was recorded, period end of story.

Re: How important are saves...

I think its more of how saves are defined in the rule book. Holds are recorded now and they are really saves in an inning other that the 9th, but could come in the 9th. The save goes to the guy who got the last out.
But, if the guy in the 7th doesn't get out of the inning "holding" the lead. The guy in the 9th may never even get the opportunity for the save.
Granted there are guys who are better suited for the 9th than others. Some don't handle that 9th inning pressure the same as the 7th or 8th.
Either way, its a stat, its used, so its important.

Re: How important are saves...

On PC, I usually do not set a closer. I order my rp by putting my best rp as priority number 1 , second best priority number 2, and so on. I get 150+ IP out of my best rp, and close to that out of my 2nd best rp that way. I come back in a lot of games because I shut the opposition out in the middle innings and I score ru s to catch up and/or take the lead. I extend leads in others because I did not give up runs in a close game and I continue to score. Then a lesser rp gets the save, or no save is earned, because I am ahead by more than 3 runs. I do loose an occasional game or two because my 3rd or 4th best rp blows a save, but I net more wins than losses using this strategy. I don’t always do this, but I do most of the time and think it is the correct way to play.

In real baseball, the “closer mentality” is a real thing in my opinion. Most professionals I have heard discuss it agree. So having a guy in the 9th with the stuff to end the game for you is important, but some teams, cleveland Indians with Andrew Miller for example, have taken The approach I use on PC and deployed their best rp in high leverage situations no matter what inning that happens to be, and they have done it to great effect. Mariano Rivera was incredibly valuable to the Yankees, but would be have been more valuable if they had let him pitch earlier in close games to give them the chance to come back, break a tie game open, or extend a lead, and get 30-40 more IP out of him per year to boot? I don’t know the answer to that, but it is worth considering.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

Absolutely agree with your PC strategy. I don't name a closer or set up man.

Re: How important are saves...

The original ? of this thread was how important are saves.a save means you won the game. as herman edwards from football once said , " hello you play to win the game " saying you dont like saves is like saying you dont like oxygen. no oxygen no life.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

No, no, no. Saying you don't like saves means you don't like how the rules grant saves. No one is rooting for their 9th inning pitcher to blow the game. The thread has evolved to what constitutes a save. Or how the stat stresses more importance on the 9th inning that it does on the 7th inning. Again, if a pitcher blows a lead in the 7th, you don't get the chance for the save in the 9th unless the team retakes the lead and wins by less than 3.
No one is saying here they don't want their guys to get a save. The simplicity you are representing the original ? is making the answer "duh". I think the original question is a little deeper than that.

Re: How important are saves...

There are decent arguments on both sides - we can all think of teams where a middle man was more valuable than the closer. For me, the 2000 White Sox come to mind. Keith Foulke was brought in during all the most difficult situations, but he was not the closer, and he was easily the most talented player in the pen. He then got moved to the closer in later years, but I always thought one of his most valuable seasons was 2000, when he was not the closer.

At the same time, some guys definitely choke in the 9th, for whatever reason. That pressure of "this is it" for whatever reason gets to some guys.

I think smart teams in the future will evolve past the "closer" concept, if they haven't already. We're already seeing pitching staffs be used in ways they never have been.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

100%. Like the use of starters. We have Openers now. Look whats going on in Tampa. Their best P is pissed because of being taken out of that WS game when he was still very effective. But the manager had his "formula".
Starters don't go as long. I never liked the definition of a QS Thought 6IP and 3ER was a pretty mediocre start. Now 6IP is almost going deep.
IMHO I think the "save" may become insignificant as gar as a counting stat goes and wont represent the best reliever as stated previously.
Kirby Yates I think was the most valuable on his team even before he was the closer.
Good debate.

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all time winning pct of teams with a save 1.000 all time losing pct of teams without a save , i dont know but it's less than 1.000

Re: How important are saves...

if you say saves are overrated you might as well say wins are overrated. as creepy joe says come on man

Re: How important are saves...

Again, you are just missing the discussion. No one is arguing what is means to get a save or the result of one. Sometimes it appears you just want to be argumentative. You are making a point no one has argued.

Re: How important are saves...

MR Bubbles please delete or edit the political commentary, I’m in a banning mood please don’t make me do it.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

i m not being political just s aying that saves equal wins. how is that wrong ?

Re: How important are saves...

No one is saying otherwise. I don't know why you feel you have to keep saying that. Every one here knows that. That's not the debate.

Re: How important are saves...

Bubbles, you are implying that saves cause wins, as in the team would have lost had it not been saved. That’s not true.

There have been plenty of games in the last 30 years where a SP went 8 and left with a 2 or 3 run lead and the closer picked up a save. In this situation the team with lead is expected to win over 92% of the time no matter who is in to pitch. That’s to say I could have my starter get the CG and I would win over 90% of the time with no save. In this example a save doesn’t cause a win, it is simply associated with it by definition.

Your argument is like if someone asked if Nike’s were good shoes and you said “Nike’s equal not being barefoot. Being barefoot sucks, therefore Nike’s are good.” The problem is that Nike’s aren’t the only way to avoid being barefoot and saves are not the only way to win.

Saves = wins, but wins do not equal saves. And that is the important point for this conversation.

Especially since we really want to know whether saves suggest an individual pitcher is good. Because wins don’t necessitate saves, and of the things that contribute to winning, saves are small, the answer is that saves do not necessarily equal a good pitcher.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

I think the save means that particular pitcher, did his job at that particular time of that game. It is a measure of standing up to pressure.
Some saves look great. Others could be a "dirty Fuentes"

Re: How important are saves...

Nice 06010 reference! We all prefer the Daisy Fuentes.

Re: How important are saves...

Years ago, the save meant more. Guys like Goose Gossage pitched two innings with regularity and would face the best part of the order. They were truly “closers.”

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Actually its an old bit from ESPN fantasy focus baseball podcast. At the time closer Brian Fuentes was getting saves in a "dirty" way. He would have a 1-2 run lead in the 9th. He'd get the 3 outs but walk 2 guys give up 2 singles and a run but still get out of it. Or with a one run lead he would load the bases before getting that 3rd out. They started calling those type of saves a "Dirty Fuentes".
They had a sound board to go with it, it was pretty funny.

Re: How important are saves...

I guess saves in my opinion are still an important aspect of the game especially if your closer is coming in protecting a one or two run lead. But, at the same time I feel it's changed as far as the mindset of a manager using relievers back in the 80's compared to now.

Re: Re: How important are saves...

Yes, I think the save is important, I think a hold is important as well. You cant get the save w/out the hold. I think PC has shown us how important that 1st reliever is who comes in to get to the save opportunity.