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Get rid of Character Clause for HOF


Get rid of Character Clause for HOF

This has to go. The character clause for admission into the HOF is causing great players to be left off ballots. Baseball writers get to put their own beliefs and interpretation of ones character as a reason to leave off the ballot someone they don't like.
In my opinion, the HOF is for great players not nice guys. Or people we think lived and acted right.
Kennesaw Mountain Landis, the first commissioner of MLB is the one who either wrote the clause into HOF ballot eligibility, or dictated to someone else to write.
This is a man who's beliefs on segregation caused MLB to take his name off the MVP trophy. So the man who wrote the character clause is a hypocrite and racist.
Time to judge these players on their merit and performance and not if we like them or not.
If we don't like how a player portrays himself, don't root for him. Dont listen to him. Dont buy his jersey. But, if he hits better than his peers, or pitches better than them. Put him in the Hall.
Thanks Just needed a forum to let that out. LOL.
griddy-

Re: Get rid of Character Clause for HOF

yes like Derek Jeter had all but 1 person vote him to the hall of fame... the person? a Boston reporter.... that's what I don't like about it, rivalries get in the way of good players

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12/18 mcvn4 Random Chatter 3 0
tbh jeter might have been the most overrated player in baseball in the 2000s. he was just a compiler who ended up on a good team

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speaking of character, watch what happens in auto league 1152 its day 6 trading open and the clown show begins. best example on pc of 3 owners who totally lack it.

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Thank the 1919 white sox for Kennesaw Mountain Landis...

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i just looked at the transaction log and figured out what teams they had

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Jw, Jeter is maybe the most overrated player of the 20th century. and I disagree Griddy. Jackie Robinson doesn't have the stats to be in the hall, but he's in because he paved the way for every other colored player to play. and im not saying Jackie wasn't a good player, he had some of the best seasons his generation. without him, guys like Acuna, Soto, and Beltre would't even be allowed to play baseball. I think it shouldn't only be about how good you are. I think if you took roids or cheated like the Astros, you should never get that honor. A player like Barry Bonds was a jerk. A-rod was just as much of a jerk. yes, they had amazing stats, but that's not all it takes to make the hall. there is no rule that says that the best player has to be voted in. I think that won the Roberto Clemente award and still had good compiled should make it over some jerk like A-rod.

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Lets not highjack the forum mrbubbles, lol. I would like to hear opinions on this HOF topic. There may not be an inductee this year. I don't mind people granted admission based on other things like "contributions to the game" on and off the field. "player ambassadors" so to speak.
I am good with umps, managers, gm's, owners, announcers, and others being inducted.
I just abhor the exclusion of players based on off the field. Its the character police I dislike. Personal feelings rather than professional.
Curt Schilling will be left off this years ballot for no reason than certain writers don't like him. I am a Royals fan so have no skin in this one. Just wrong.
Bonds, ARod, belong. Thats my point exactly. Their stats for their career qualify them. They played in an era where raids were prominent. We leaving everyone out from that time?
Also Jackies case wasn't what I was talking about in the original post.
He should be included as I already said because of his contributions to the game. Ty Cobb was a racist, he's in. Lets keep Bonds out and ARod out for doing the same thing most of the others were doing in the same time period. Put an asterisk by it. Whatever. Give them their own section if you want. The steroids debate will go on forever. I am talking about the "jerks". Thats a perceived personality. Nothing to do with performance.
I was at Canton when OJ Staubach, and Namath were inducted. Broadway Joe was a lady's man. Some may not like it. He's in. Roger had impeccable character, but that didn't matter. In on performance. OJ, well we know the story. As far as I know his bust is still there.
Get rid of the character clause and have these sports writers vote on merit and outstanding contributions to the game.

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I have no strong opinion either way, but "Curt Schilling will be left off this years ballot for no reason than certain writers don't like him." is a pretty big euphemism for his entire HOF candidacy.

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He didn't become a starter until '92 in his 5th year the he went to the Phillies. Totaled 20 years. 246 wins 3.46 era in the juice era. 3116 K's,
8.6 K/9, WHIP 1.137, 4.38 k/BB ratio. 6 all-star games and 3 times runner up for Cy Young Award.
My original point wasn't to argue his stats and how they rank for the Hall. Euphemism or not. It is a wide spread opinion among the talking heads that his personality and beliefs are being held against him.
And he is not the reason for the post. I am against character being a reason to keep him or any one out.

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As I said, I have no strong opinion. If he gets in, great—his numbers are clearly good enough to get him in. If he doesn't, it was statements and events 100% within his control that prevented him from doing so. It won't be some huge travesty.

I respect the opinions of those who think HoF candidacy should be evaluated solely on the field. I also respect the opinions of those who think his statements and actions should be disqualifying. Same goes for Bonds, Clemens, Rose, etc.

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Ty Cobb was considered a vile human being by opponents and his own teammates. He once jumped into the stands and beat up a disabled fan. But there is no doubt he belongs in the hall but what about pete rose ? hall of fame player yes, but he broke one of the biggest rules in the game. However, in the NFL , paul hornung was suspended for 1 season for gambling yet still made the hall. in the end sports are a lot like life, it isnt always fair , it is what it is and you just try to do your best.

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I think Schilling belongs in the HOF, and he will get there one day. However, I don't think the "character clause" in the traditional sense is what is keeping him out, it is his own stupidity. He would no doubt be in right now but for one single STUPID tweet.

You can't "cheer on" someone calling for the execution of journalists and then expect that to have no impact on a bunch of journalists who are voting for whether or not to honor you. I imagine he will be voted in this year but I think it would be fitting if he is denied that honor by the BBWAA and has to wait to get in via an ERA Committee.

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PETE ROSE DIDN"T EVEN BET ON HIS TEAM TO LOSE! Pete Rose is one the best players ever and man was an absolute savage on the field. he was so confident in his team, he bet they would win. this wasn't a Black Sox scenario where they lost on purpose. and also, when Cobb got in, it was a way different time(1936) where a lot of white people were still very racist and Ty Cobb was brought up that way. It's simple, if you cheat to boost your stats and give you an unfair advantage, then you shouldn't be in because you didn't deserve the stats you put up, because you cheated. its also not fair because you might be pushing someone out who played the game right their whole career. That's like saying that the Astros deserved the 2017 World Series trophy, or deserved to make the 2019 World Series

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Steve Garvey is a prime example of that , mvp, multi time allstar ,gold gloves , almost 3000 hits etc. But off the field , he allegedly liked to keep the writers wives happy. Thats akin to jumping into the tiger cage at the zoo and waving steaks in their face and then wondering why you were attacked.

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Rose allegedly never bet against his team, but he didn't always bet ON his team. If you notice that he didn't place a bet on his team in a particular day, that's information. The whole thing is fishy, and Rose is a very sketchy character.

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yeah, but he wasn't raping or abusing the women. it was those wives choice, just sayin. doesn't make it right though

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Just my perspectives:

Character should be part of the package. Baseball is about more than just stats. It's sport, entertainment and (hopefully) offering up role models for kids., at least it was at one time. So the entire package is valid.

If you are a known cheater, I say NO. (Amazingly I agree with Dandy on something). I've set the bar high in everything Including my playing/coaching years. Personally, I am firm on this. Rose? Never.

The Roid-Boys: I say no BUT if you do want to include them, have a special exhibit/wing solely for them. Use it as both a shaming and perhaps educational opportunity on both health issues of using roids and the lack of personal ethics in sports. Any Roid exhibit might be located in a stall in a public rest room. Seems fitting.

Since the Hall is only quasi related to MLB, it is not easy to govern. As for sportswriter voting, it is tough to legislate HOW they vote. In the end like in a lot of sport issues, we end up with the endless opportunity to debate.

Part of the fun of being a fan. Good topic, Jim.

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read this article on the rose cheating

https://thegruelingtruth.com/baseba..

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Seems the character clause only works one way and that is to keep certain players out of the HOF. So why bother having it in the first place other than to have an excuse to keep guys out the writers have an issue with all of a sudden?

It has to my knowledge not been used to remove any known lack of character players that are already inducted into the Hall?

On the other hand who has it helped get elected? It certainly has not helped Dale Murphy who is a HOF person on and off the field and a top 5-10 player in the 1980's. I know the longevity argument he only did it for 6-7 years. But the numbers do not lie compared to his peers in his era. Admittedly this part is personal...Braves fan from the 80's. Lol

So get rid of the rule because to me it is just an excuse to keep certain deserving players out of the HOF.




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Dandy, that's the article to which I was referring. I remember reading it when it came out. I basically summarized it in two lines above.

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Mike, Dale Murphy COULD make the Hall, but there are just a lot of players who were better than him. he only had 2000 hits in his career. there are a lot of players who have 2,000 hits and 4000 home runs. not denying he was a good player, there were just a lot of players better, especially in the 80s and 90s

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Dandy, I didn't say Murph should be a HoFer OVER anyone else who was already in.

I was speaking on the character clause which combined with a 2'time MVP (Top 10 MVP voting for 5 straight years), 2nd most HRs and RBI during the 80's, 7 time All-Star and 5 Gold Gloves to go along with a squeaky clean image the 'character clause' did not Help Murphy. So what do they use it for? As it appears they only use it to keep players they don't like (for a variety of reasons) out.

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Interesting topic Jim. I've always loved baseball because it is such a character building sport. Such a humbling sport - wish more kids played it.
But I tend to agree that the best players should be in the HOF. I think we can recognize that someone is great at one thing and not great in other ways.

Although I will say that if pennantchase has taught us anything, it's that Pete Rose was also super overrated as a player.

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haha on Rose. And don't get me wrong folks. I am all for all of us displaying quality character. I just don't think it should be how we judge a persons performance. There are several Hollywood stars and starlets who's "questionable character" has been called into question. They still have stars on Hollywood blvd and win Oscars, Grammy's and the like.

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Kelly,

On the Pete Rose comment, they called him Charlie Hustle as a negative nickname. The players at the time referred to it as fake hustle: meaningless and just for show.

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"Mike, Dale Murphy COULD make the Hall, but there are just a lot of players who were better than him. he only had 2000 hits in his career. there are a lot of players who have 2,000 hits and 4000 home runs. not denying he was a good player, there were just a lot of players better, especially in the 80s and 90s"

Who are the guys with FOUR THOUSAND HOME RUNS?? LOL

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Pete rose did more with his talent thin any player of all time and the players of his era loved him for that the only reason he is not in the hall is because of 1 persons crusade time for pete to be in the hall

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I saw many times pete changed the outcome of the game just by pure desier and husle

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yea the 4000 hit Pete Rose was definitely overrated

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Dandy there's no doubt that getting 4,000+ hits at any level is an incredible accomplishment. But there are some pretty empty stats that go along with Rose. Not much power, not much speed, not a particularly good fielder. .784 career OPS ranks 596th just ahead of JT Snow and Darren Daulton. -13.2 career DWar. Was he ever the best player in the league during his 24 years? Was he ever the best at his position? Was he ever even the best player on his team? Does he ever make the cut on a favorite teams league? I'm not sure but I'd guess not on all those. Which makes him a player that had a really long career in the mold of Darrel Evans, Steve Finley... guys like that. Nothing wrong with that - but I still think he is overrated.

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I am with Dempsey on this one. Rose should never be in. On top the gambling, which should exclude him, he is a boarderline candidate at best IMO. Yes, my opinion, you can disagree, that is fine.

Roid users, also never. Was Bonds amazing before he used, yes, but he knowingly and willingly broke the rules, and your head grew three sizes to large (sorry, my boys have been watching the Grinch). Sorry, you are out. Would he have broken the HR record had he not cheated? Sadly, we will never know. Same with A-Rod, Clemens, Palmeiro, and the rest of that group.


Should some people be removed because of known character flaws. Yeah, I think so. Cobb being a prime example. Racism, violence against others, and cheating should exclude you, and even remove you from the hall.

Not on here wanting to argue, people are entitled to their opinion on this, just putting my two cents since the thread asked for it.

I really don’t pay attention to any of the sports hall of fames any more. Since he was already mentioned, Namath being in the Football hall is a joke. More Int’s than TD’s, more losses than wins. No TD’s in his Super Bowl victory. Barely more TD’s than int’s in college. Laughable. Eli Manning will get in, no way is he deserving. There are so many in each sport that don’t belong IMO for various reasons, I just try not to pay attention to it any more.

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Stephen a Smith of espn made a great analogy today about the difference between good and great. he said that any track star from today would easily beat jesse owens in a race. they are good, but owens is still an all time great. Should this have been put in all caps because it came from stephen a ?

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Well said on Rose Krtyler... completely agree. A lot of empty stats there. Good player who had a long career, not a great player.

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no, I don't think that he is overrated. no one ever expected him to hit more than 10 home runs in a season. but they did expect him to have over a 320 average. if he was overrated, people would have expected him to put up 30/30 seasons. and actually he hd 200 career stolen bases and even stole 20 bags at 38 years old. and he had a career 991. fld percentage. the league average was 977. he had a 784 OPS because he didn't that many home runs. but thats like saying Honus Wagner wasn't a great player. he didn't hit more than 10 home runs in a season. Pete rose had lost 800 career doubles, 1300 RBIs, so no, he wasn't overrated. he was an amazing player. and his prime was in the 60s-70s where players didn't have as many home runs. in 1968, if my math is correct, Pete rose was 27 and the average number of home runs from individual players was 3. Rose had 10.

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Bubbles, you just made Bravosmike's point on Murphy. He dominated his era, but did not get rewarded for it. His stats don't compare to today's players in some cases, but he was awesome in his time.

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he also had a stretch of 9 straight seasons hitting over 300. and then another streak of 5. only one down year is in between those streaks where he still hit a respectable 284. also, a career OPS of 784, but he also played 7 years after his power fell off and that gave a hit to his career OPS if he were to retire after that age-38 season, his OPS would have been around 850. he just played the game until he was 45, around 10 years more than most players.

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also, to answer your question about him being the best in the league at some point, yes, he won an MVP, a 17x all star, 3x batting title, 2x gold glove, ROY, 3x World Series and was a major cog in the big red machine. what many people forget is that he played for 25 years. 25 YEARS! thats a long time, and you aren't going to be an MVP the last decade of that, it just the way bodies work. Nolan Ryan never even won a Cy Young award but he's in the Hall because he had almost 6,000 strikeouts.

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Pete Rose was tied for 67th in the league in HR's in 1967 with 12.

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In 1968 he tied for 59th in the league with 10 HR's.

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with all those hits and doubles only topped 80 rbi twice in 24 yrs

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Rose stole bases at a career 57% success rate...

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He topped an .850 OPS 5 times in that 25 year career.

Sorry, all of these should have been one post. I was going to stop, but got bored and continued.

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appreciate your point of view Dandy and we can just disagree. The 1973 MVP was a perfect example of him being overrated. There are so many more deserving players from that year including Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Bobby Bonds, Darrell Evans. But I think Rose got (and continues to get) a lot of credit for his high batting average.

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isn't batting average the most important pat of baseball? you can't score runs if no one gets on base. and he only had limited RBIs because he was a lead off hitter because he hit for average so well

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isn't batting average the most important pat of baseball? you can't score runs if no one gets on base. and he only had limited RBIs because he was a lead off hitter because he hit for average so well

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am i the only one who feels rose would be in by now if he wasn't an absolute jackwagon of a person lol? i mean, he fought tooth and nail for years claiming innocence. went out of his way to stick his finger in MLB's face.

not debating whether he should or shouldn't be there, but i blame no one but pete for where he is now. had he simply admitted his wrongdoing a few years after, acted contrite, and hired arods PR firm, it would be a much different story in 2020 imo.

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well, it is hard to admit that you did something... I didn't really know at the time but now I know it isn't okay

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whats funny is earlier you said jeter is an overrated compiler, well i guess if you consider lifetime 3400 hits,.310 avg , 260 homers , 817 ops, 5 world series rings , 14 all star games , 5 gold gloves , 5 silver sluggers overrated yeah your right.

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Batting average is not the most important part of baseball. Most stat experts agree for hitters that is OPS, and that is not something Rose excelled at. He did get on base at a good clip but, mostly first base. It would take two hits or a homerun for him to score from there...

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he didn't have a great OPS because he didn't hit for power. if he did, he would have had a great OPS. and he did have an 800 OPS average in his prime. and yes Jeter was overrated, because some people say he's the best player of all time. not saying he wasn't a good player, but he didn't win an MVP,and only won all those World Series because he was on the yankees lmao

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All the stats are great. Good discussion.
just to hit on the Namath thing. Hall of Fame. Fame, famous. He quarterbacked the first AFL victory over the NFL in Super Bowl 3. He predicted they would win. Of curse he would. But that win and his fame at the time gets him into the Hall of Fame. He was an ambassador for the game. Progressing it. I don't mind him being in there.
OJ is a crud in my opinion. At the time though, Best RB ever. First going over 2000 yards and that was in 14 games. I remember watching him do it on tV against the Jets amid the snow flurries at Shea Stadium.
Too bad his personal life, taints is not a strong enough word, his career.

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Dandy, that is the point though, Rose's lack of power and below average defense keep him out of the Hall IMO, even if the gambling on his own team would not. He was good, not great. He also probably cost his teams run by running into outs trying to steal bases - he only had a 57% success rate.

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Jimgriddy, yeah I get that on the Namath thing. I just see that Hall differently than you, and that is fine.

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Mrbubbles, Jeter never actually deserved any of those gold gloves though. He only had a positive dWar in 3 seasons. He was statistically a bad defensive shortstop. Now, he brought a ton of other things to the table, great leader, one of the most clutch hitters of all time, and a pretty clutch defender as I remember it as well, but overall, he cost his team defensively.

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Still though, not a lot of players can say they got to 4000 hits, or even 3000 or 2000. He was a great hitter and you can’t Deny that. And like I said, it was a different time, players didn’t hit for as much power, which means OPS isn’t as valuable to stats then as it is now

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I called Rose a borderline HOF with my opinion being that he is not deserving based on his gambling issues or his player career. That adds up to a really, really good player, but not an elite one.

The last point I will make is that he averaged about 3.3 WAR per season. In most seasons, that is not even a top 50 position player. Granted, if you take out his last 5-6 seasons, that number will rise, but he also does not get to 4,000 hits, which a lot of people point to as the reason he deserves to be in. Call him around a top 25-30 position player each season if you remove his last 5-6 seasons. To me, that is a really good player that most teams would want to have, but not a HOF'er.

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why would you call him a jackwagon it shows your age. pete rose was a loved player by kids and adults he put forth all he had and wether batting 1st or 8th it did not stop him its what we wanted are kids to be like and kids like me new it and loved him

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whatever dude. he is a great hitter that deserves to be in, no matter your opinion. and would be in if the MLB would lift a dumb reason to ban him

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i’m 50 years old. i’ve listened to countless interviews of rose. he’s arrogant. not denying his ability.
over and over and over again he brushed aside gambling accusations and acted like the victim.
anyway. just my opinion. i’m confident countless people who’ve interacted with him would disagree. he did not do a good job coming off as apologetic. for an extended period of time he was the exact opposite.

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Not sure how many people on this thread actually saw Pete Rose play, but I can't see how anyone that did could possibly say he was overrated (on the field). He played in a time period where homeruns and strikeouts weren't everything like today's game. It was more about getting on base, taking extra bases, moving runners over, etc. He was relentless in every aspect of the game on the field, and being a Braves fan I hated him.

That being said, he has always seemed like a douche as a person, and I would agree he has been his own worst enemy as far as the HOF stuff goes...

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First of all , bottom part of your post 100 pct correct. now as far as the top part. i was 6 yrs old the first time i saw pete rose on tv. i might have seen 2 or 3 games b4 that. i still hadn't learned to write my name in cursive yet but i knew after one game watching pete that he played different from everyone else.

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Rose and Joe Morgan both came up to the Majors in '63 - I turned 12 in Sept. of that year. I was already a hard-core baseball fan at that point and saw Rose play on TV on the local Cardinal broadcasts (I grew up in the midwest). You can't really over-rate him because at the time he was was an impact player due to his ability to get on base and run the bases aggressively. All the bad stuff didn't come out till much later.

- The Sheik

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And as far as character as relates to admission to the hall is concerned - ye reap what ye sow.........

- The Sheik

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THE SHEIK HAS SPOKEN!!!! DISCUSSION OVER!

And I'll agree, he was a jerk and doesn't deserve the hall cuz of what he did after a little more research :)

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true dat

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I'm not as convinced about Joe Jackson, who never got paid and actually played his ass off in the 1919 series. Buck Weaver had a change of heart also, but was a little more "worldly" than poor Joe and may not have deserved his ban from baseball.

- The Sheik

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Sheik,

I read an account based on Christy Mathewson's observations of the 1919 series. He was brought in to watch the Sox players when the 'word on the street' was that a fix was in. He pointed out numerous examples of misplays, slightly less effort, questionable routes and decisions. Supposedly Jackson was in the mix on this.

It is akin to htennis's comment about Rose: His lack of placing a bet is a signal in itself. It is a reason why MLB still has a clause for employees about taking money from casinos, etc. Even part-time employees cannot work in any manner with a casino operation.

Influence can be hard to trace.

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I can say I never saw Joe Jackson play...

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You'd have to be over a hundred years old to have seen him play, so yeah I would think not... 😉😂

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Of course if he was over 100 years old, he'd likely not remember it anyway.

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I was born in September of 1951 and Joe Jackson died in December of 1951, but I don't really remember him 😎

- The Sheik

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Seems like the universe balanced? :-)
I was born 8/22/63 and Kennedy was killed 11/22/63. Just sayin'
Great book by the way. One of S.K.'s best.