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Congats
Re: Congats
Can't say I agree with CC Sabathia being a 1st Ballot Hall of famer = who didn't vote for Ichiro?
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I was listening to Mark Schlereth today on Seattle sports raido and even though he is a former nfl player ,he called the guy who didn't vote for Ichiro a dbag, but he has a son who played mlb so he knows baseball. All of us here have our fave players and Ichi is one of mine. Was at the game when he broke Sislers record and still have the ticket stub. Unfortunately ,I was standing on the concourse at 1st baseand took a pic but when I got back my film all I had was a sea of hands. The old days when you had to wait a week to see your pics lol
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Well, let's see, the only player elected unanimously was Marino Rivera, so I'm going to go out on a limb here a say that it was likely a NY writer who didn't vote for him.
- The Sheik
- The Sheik
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I would love to go back in time and ask the writers who left Babe Ruth ,Lou Gehrig and others off the ballot what they were thinking.
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Like I said in another thread, the person who left him off did so because he wanted to vote for another player who might not get the 5% to stay on the ballot for next year. Knowing Ichiro was going to get in easy. We may not agree with the logic, but it isn't with malicious intent. This has been thrown out there before as a reason from an "anonymous" voter.
Some of the voters also think they are all smarter than everyone else. Why else would Vida Blue not be in?
Some of the voters also think they are all smarter than everyone else. Why else would Vida Blue not be in?
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Jim, I like Vida Blue and it's be great to see him get in. But there are at least 130 SPs with better longevity-adjusted ERA+'s than Blue, many of whom aren't in the Hall. A pitcher in the Hall with a comparable ERA+ is Jim Kaat, and he did it with over 1,000 more innings than Blue. By far the biggest SP HoF snub among eligible, non-PED linked pitchers, is Schilling. We've talked about that on this board before.
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How about Steve Garvey ? We all know why he isn't in the hall it's because he messed around with writers wives and girlfriends. Almost 3000 hits , his teams always won , multiple all stars , mvp ,world series ring , 3rd longest game streak etc.
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JAWS has historically been the best HoF predictor. The avg JAWS score of HoF 1B's is 53.5. Garvey's is 33.4. There are 16 eligible, non-PED linked 1B's with higher JAWS scores than Garvey who aren't in the Hall. The highest is Keith Hernandez, but even he is below 53.5.
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Garvey's case has been heard again and again. I hope they leave him on the bench for a while and stop wasting limited slots for consideration on him. I want to see the players that fell off the ballot because they came on during years that were loaded get another chance. Whitaker, Lofton, Santana to name a few. Just want them to get consideration again.
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I am in total agreement on Whitaker and Lofton. I saw a lot of Lofton. Always felt like a game changer.
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If CC Sabathia is in, Schilling should then be in.
As for Wagner, his numbers are even more dominant than Trevor Hoffman's.
As for Wagner, his numbers are even more dominant than Trevor Hoffman's.
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Schilling has the best numbers of any eligible SP not in except for Roger Clemens; he should be in regardless of Sabathia.
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We all know why Curt isn't in and it has nothing to do with what he did on the field. As far as CC and Wagner , only 2 lefthanders in the history of the game had more k's than cc and Wagner was a lights out closer in the steroid era. It's too bad that the writers hold grudges for peoples personal opinions. The hall should be for the fans.
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I guess the writers who vote for the HOF also have the right to express themselves as they see fit.
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Sheik, they have a right to express themselves, but they are obligated to follow the rules. In rejecting Schilling, they are presumably relying on the ethics clause. But that clause has never been interpreted to apply to legal, off-the-field things completely unrelated to baseball--except for Schilling.
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I completely dont like most of Curt Schiling off field remarks and opinions.
He could of benn nicer with reporters...maybe.
But on the field, he gave me many,many,many great baseball moments ! And he surely contributed to Baseball's most historic moments !
People ignoring or not recongnizing this unless he endorse another political party?
I can surely pass on his opinions. He is a baseball great !
If I have a baseball to give for a 7th Game WS start... He is probably my man ! Way Before Maddux !
I dont care about his political opinion ! I give him the baseball!
How can that be ignored from the Baseball Hall of Fame ?
So sick and tired about being divided about opinions. Lets accept various opinons and go on people !
We have been above other shchitholes on the planet. We are able to live with various choices and opinions ! And let keep it still !
I dont like Schilling's political opinion, but I would still make him the Ace of my rotation !
Anyhow people. Lets just enjoy baseball, and not fight over political divergeance ! We stand above that !
He could of benn nicer with reporters...maybe.
But on the field, he gave me many,many,many great baseball moments ! And he surely contributed to Baseball's most historic moments !
People ignoring or not recongnizing this unless he endorse another political party?
I can surely pass on his opinions. He is a baseball great !
If I have a baseball to give for a 7th Game WS start... He is probably my man ! Way Before Maddux !
I dont care about his political opinion ! I give him the baseball!
How can that be ignored from the Baseball Hall of Fame ?
So sick and tired about being divided about opinions. Lets accept various opinons and go on people !
We have been above other shchitholes on the planet. We are able to live with various choices and opinions ! And let keep it still !
I dont like Schilling's political opinion, but I would still make him the Ace of my rotation !
Anyhow people. Lets just enjoy baseball, and not fight over political divergeance ! We stand above that !
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Expressing opinions is one thIng, expressing a feeling that the very people who vote for the HOF should be lynched is another.
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An unrelated user tweeted a photo that included a man with a t-shirt that was seen as sympathetic to the idea of violence against a journalist, in the context of a presidential election. Schilling posted something was seen as supportive of the t-shirt, calling it "awesome." He immediately clarified that his comment was 100% sarcastic/joking, and deleted his comment.
That was certainly in bad taste and even an abuse of social media. Nobody should do that, even in a joking manner. But to call it "calling for the lynching of the HoF voters" is a wild exaggeration.
Regarding the ethics clause, which many writers have explicitly invoked, Schilling won the Roberto Clemente Award, Branch Rickey Award, Hutch Award, Sporting News Good Guy of the Year award, Lou Gehrig Award, Babe Ruth Award, Worth Magazine's Young Benefactor of the Year award and the designation of "Most Caring Athlete'' from USA Today. He was also a tireless advocate for veterans' causes and a champion in the fight against amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou Gehrig's Disease.)
I'm not saying all of that excuses that retweeting something in bad taste and showing poor judgment generally on social media, but it's relevant if the criterion here is the ethics/character clause. Obviously, there are many players in the Hall who have said worse things than this *directly* (as opposed to commenting approvingly on someone else saying them) and who never retracted those statements. Because, again, the character clause has never been interpreted to apply to completely non-baseball issues, except here.
That was certainly in bad taste and even an abuse of social media. Nobody should do that, even in a joking manner. But to call it "calling for the lynching of the HoF voters" is a wild exaggeration.
Regarding the ethics clause, which many writers have explicitly invoked, Schilling won the Roberto Clemente Award, Branch Rickey Award, Hutch Award, Sporting News Good Guy of the Year award, Lou Gehrig Award, Babe Ruth Award, Worth Magazine's Young Benefactor of the Year award and the designation of "Most Caring Athlete'' from USA Today. He was also a tireless advocate for veterans' causes and a champion in the fight against amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou Gehrig's Disease.)
I'm not saying all of that excuses that retweeting something in bad taste and showing poor judgment generally on social media, but it's relevant if the criterion here is the ethics/character clause. Obviously, there are many players in the Hall who have said worse things than this *directly* (as opposed to commenting approvingly on someone else saying them) and who never retracted those statements. Because, again, the character clause has never been interpreted to apply to completely non-baseball issues, except here.
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I am not suggesting he should or shouldn’t be in, and I did not say that he was "calling for the lynching of HOF voters." That is a misuse of quotation marks.
But calling a shirt “awesome” that supports lynching journalist (aka HOF voters) is downright stupid. I also doubt any of us buy the "just a joke" routine anymore.
No one has ever won public office by alienating 100% of the voters. Why should we be surprised when someone doesn't get elected to the HOF who alienated 100% of the voting block.
But calling a shirt “awesome” that supports lynching journalist (aka HOF voters) is downright stupid. I also doubt any of us buy the "just a joke" routine anymore.
No one has ever won public office by alienating 100% of the voters. Why should we be surprised when someone doesn't get elected to the HOF who alienated 100% of the voting block.
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A lot of those players who may have said worse were around pre-internet. Unfortunately, if you "act out" now, millions of people (including HOF writers) are witness to it. Social media has ruined that forever - if you make the decision to be "controversial" now, there are consequences. This isn't my opinion, it's reality.
On another subject, what pitchers should or should not be in the HOF, I heard an interesting podcast with Eno Sarris about how the way baseball is played now will complicate election to the hall in the future. There are only a handful of pitchers around now who pitched significant innings who would be potential HOFers - off the top of my head Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, Grienke come to mind (I could be missing some). After them it will get tougher and the comparisons to pitchers of the past will be more stark. Same for hitters - how many current hitters will finish with a career .300 BA ?
I'm afraid that Sabathia, who I don't even think belongs in the "Hall of Very Good", but the "Hall of Good" is a pre-curser of the future.
And this is just my 2 centavos, for what it's worth....
- The Sheik
On another subject, what pitchers should or should not be in the HOF, I heard an interesting podcast with Eno Sarris about how the way baseball is played now will complicate election to the hall in the future. There are only a handful of pitchers around now who pitched significant innings who would be potential HOFers - off the top of my head Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, Grienke come to mind (I could be missing some). After them it will get tougher and the comparisons to pitchers of the past will be more stark. Same for hitters - how many current hitters will finish with a career .300 BA ?
I'm afraid that Sabathia, who I don't even think belongs in the "Hall of Very Good", but the "Hall of Good" is a pre-curser of the future.
And this is just my 2 centavos, for what it's worth....
- The Sheik
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I have changed my opinion of the HoF over the years. I used to think it was this elite club that only the players that met some measuring stick should be included. The reality is that version of the Hall stopped existing more than 50 years. It was at least when Frankie Frisch made sure all his buddies were added but it probably had already stopped existing before that even.
I now see the HoF as a museum that exists to celebrate the game of baseball. To do that, it needs to always be honoring new people that added something to the game. I am not sure I would have included Wagner, but I do not really have a problem with CC. I also do not believe there is anything actually special about "first ballot". I do think that is an easy way to describe a player, and I agree that CC was not a "first ballot" by the criteria of whether he was a no-doubt about it player like Ichiro. Inducting him on the first ballot is more a reflection of the year a player first appears.
I am now in the camp of adding more players and I really hope the Hall finds a way to make sure all the players that did not get a fair look because they came on during a crowded ballot get a fresh look. I previously mentioned Whitaker, Lofton and Santana. I think they all deserve to be included in the Hall but if nothing else they at least deserve to be considered. They all fell off the ballot via fluke of the years they came on. I would also like to see Murphy, Tiant and many others keep getting a look but at least they have all had their cases heard a few times. I do think Tiant would have been an easy inductee if he did not happen to appear on the ballot during a run of all time great starters. Had he been on the ballot around the time Catfish was elected I think he would have easily made it.
I am 100% in favor of adding Bonds, Clemens and ARod and I would not be against McGwire, Sosa and Manny either.
I now see the HoF as a museum that exists to celebrate the game of baseball. To do that, it needs to always be honoring new people that added something to the game. I am not sure I would have included Wagner, but I do not really have a problem with CC. I also do not believe there is anything actually special about "first ballot". I do think that is an easy way to describe a player, and I agree that CC was not a "first ballot" by the criteria of whether he was a no-doubt about it player like Ichiro. Inducting him on the first ballot is more a reflection of the year a player first appears.
I am now in the camp of adding more players and I really hope the Hall finds a way to make sure all the players that did not get a fair look because they came on during a crowded ballot get a fresh look. I previously mentioned Whitaker, Lofton and Santana. I think they all deserve to be included in the Hall but if nothing else they at least deserve to be considered. They all fell off the ballot via fluke of the years they came on. I would also like to see Murphy, Tiant and many others keep getting a look but at least they have all had their cases heard a few times. I do think Tiant would have been an easy inductee if he did not happen to appear on the ballot during a run of all time great starters. Had he been on the ballot around the time Catfish was elected I think he would have easily made it.
I am 100% in favor of adding Bonds, Clemens and ARod and I would not be against McGwire, Sosa and Manny either.
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For me the standard should be to compare how the player fare vs the others at the same position during the time he played.
My argument for Kershaw, Scherzer,Greinke and Verlander is that at the time they played, they were the best and most dominant at the position, and for a long time.
This is also why I think Whitaker should be without a doubt in the Hall of Fame and so does Lofton, sine he his probably among the 10 best leadoff hitters in history...
For me a player overlooked at, that should be in there for the contribution he did, that goes beyound the the stats is Bo Jackson,.
To compensate players being snubbed, The Hall of Fame should induct baseball moments and it's actors in the Hall of Fame.
Sosa vs McGwire, Fernando Mania, Schilling bloody sock start, Mantle vs Maris, The Big Red Machine, Bo Jackson multi tasking, basicaly celebrates legends of the game.
My argument for Kershaw, Scherzer,Greinke and Verlander is that at the time they played, they were the best and most dominant at the position, and for a long time.
This is also why I think Whitaker should be without a doubt in the Hall of Fame and so does Lofton, sine he his probably among the 10 best leadoff hitters in history...
For me a player overlooked at, that should be in there for the contribution he did, that goes beyound the the stats is Bo Jackson,.
To compensate players being snubbed, The Hall of Fame should induct baseball moments and it's actors in the Hall of Fame.
Sosa vs McGwire, Fernando Mania, Schilling bloody sock start, Mantle vs Maris, The Big Red Machine, Bo Jackson multi tasking, basicaly celebrates legends of the game.
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I knew when I signed on and saw a red 16 icon next to "boards" something interesting was going on.
Great debate. I hope we can continue to do so like adults. The one thing I would like to see go is the red thumbs down option. We can disagree, as many have done on this thread, with respectful words and without the red visual.
Great debate. I hope we can continue to do so like adults. The one thing I would like to see go is the red thumbs down option. We can disagree, as many have done on this thread, with respectful words and without the red visual.
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Sheik, regarding your earlier comment about what people likely said way before social media became a thing, i bring to you Exhibit A: Ty Cobb
One of the best players in MLB history. But look up how he carried himself both on and off the field, and if you didn't already know you'd probably be shocked. He apparently was (and likely still is) among the most adversarial players to ever exist
One of the best players in MLB history. But look up how he carried himself both on and off the field, and if you didn't already know you'd probably be shocked. He apparently was (and likely still is) among the most adversarial players to ever exist
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Pipl: "To compensate players being snubbed, The Hall of Fame should induct baseball moments and it's actors in the Hall of Fame."
These are already in the Hall of Fame, via exhibits, the Hall is already a museum celebrating the game of baseball, as others have described. What we're calling the HoF is actually just one wing (the Plaque Gallery). Have you been? You'll find many of the great moments/actors described in this thread, including McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds.
These are already in the Hall of Fame, via exhibits, the Hall is already a museum celebrating the game of baseball, as others have described. What we're calling the HoF is actually just one wing (the Plaque Gallery). Have you been? You'll find many of the great moments/actors described in this thread, including McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds.
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Cobb once jumped into the stands a beat a disabled man who had no hands which led to the infamous game where the Tigers hadto recruit guys off the street for the next game that they ended up losing 24-2 https://www.baseballscribe.com/blog..
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And if it had happened today think about the sh_t storm it would have raised. Today, I would guess that most of the population of the US and much of the rest of the world would have know about it. In Cobb's day probably half the population couldn't read !! 😲 And if you read the actual account, he wasn't missing his hands, he was missing fingers from one hand.
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Yes Ace Cannon, Went there in the early 90's....
I understand they are there as exhebits. But they should instead be ceremoniously celebrated, and by then its actors to also be elected to the Hall of Fame...
Veteran comitee Elects McGwire vs Sosa chase for the record in the HOF. Get a plaque for McGwire and Sosa and get them in,etc.
FernandoMania voted in the Hall Of Fame. get a new PLaque for Fernando Valenzuela for creating one of the biggest buzz related to a rookie pitcher...
Big red Machine, get a plaque for each of the starters of the most legendary team ever...
Bo Jackson, surely deserves to be in there, just for the stunning accomplishment of being ann All Star in both sports...
Schilling in for probably 2 of the biggest Post Season starts ever ( Bloody Sock, and D-Backs win Game 7)
Roger Maris HR record Holder for so long, etc...
Pete Rose inducted for Base hits record or as being a member of the Big Red Machine.
It can then put an end to all of these snubs... Veteran comitee puting players in for a specific reason.
Get these players in based on their link to specific incredible accomplishment also.
It is as good as celebrating them for the career that they had...
etc...
I understand they are there as exhebits. But they should instead be ceremoniously celebrated, and by then its actors to also be elected to the Hall of Fame...
Veteran comitee Elects McGwire vs Sosa chase for the record in the HOF. Get a plaque for McGwire and Sosa and get them in,etc.
FernandoMania voted in the Hall Of Fame. get a new PLaque for Fernando Valenzuela for creating one of the biggest buzz related to a rookie pitcher...
Big red Machine, get a plaque for each of the starters of the most legendary team ever...
Bo Jackson, surely deserves to be in there, just for the stunning accomplishment of being ann All Star in both sports...
Schilling in for probably 2 of the biggest Post Season starts ever ( Bloody Sock, and D-Backs win Game 7)
Roger Maris HR record Holder for so long, etc...
Pete Rose inducted for Base hits record or as being a member of the Big Red Machine.
It can then put an end to all of these snubs... Veteran comitee puting players in for a specific reason.
Get these players in based on their link to specific incredible accomplishment also.
It is as good as celebrating them for the career that they had...
etc...