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Re: Re: How Important is fielding?


Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

While I agree that Brooks Robinson was one of the finest, if NOT the finest 3B I ever saw, (Scott Rolen was VERY Good too) Third basemen get jobbed in Pennant Chase.

The Sim simply does not direct enough balls to 3B -a LOT lower % then should be hit that way. Second Base on the other hand gets WAY too many balls hit their way - DWAR has only been a stat for about 2 years now and the site has only been recording the amount of DWar plays accumulated about say 4-6 months??

But I don't even bother with Rolen anymore he simply doesn't make a big enough difference and that's sad, because a good 3B and to a FAR lesser extent a 1B can save DOUBLES down the line.

Re: How Important is fielding?

What is more important? Rank vs DWAR? Does age play a fact in the two cats?

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

Rank does not consider DWar at all, Rank is derived by measuring a players BA, OBP and OPS compared to the other players in the Pool

So if you are the batting champ you get 100 for BA - if your OBP is in the top 10% you get say 90 for OBP and if your OPS is in the top 5% you get about 95 for that, add all three together, divide by 3 and you should have a players Rank, or pretty close to it.

Fielding has no effect, so a 68 Ranked SS with a +4.11 Dwar might be worth a LOT more to your team than an 86 ranked -0.5 DWAR SS

Same with Pitchers only the stats are H/9 Whip and K/9 and they are not all as equally weighted as Batting stats - in fact OBP may have a slightly higher % than AVG and OPS not sure

Re: How Important is fielding?

Regarding ‘Third basemen get jobbed in Pennant Chase.’


Maybe, I won’t pretend to know. I’m pretty sure Guy used stats he found to determine how often each position gets them. I just did a quick search and found someone’s study where they found SS gets the most, followed closely by 2B, then 3b far behind, and 1b very far behind. I don’t know the percentages but believe Guy used percentages he found or estimated.

I just found another that someone pulled from baseball reference which I believes shows balls fielded by each position (not necessarily all balls actually hit to them).

1B: 7.5%

2B: 12.8%

3B: 10.4%

SS: 13.9%

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

As for 3B... you also have to compare accross leagues... per example

in best of 2000

Scott Rolen and its+ 3 DWAR wil save around 40 base hits per season...

Alex Rodriguez and its almost even DWAR (+0,17) only saves maybe 3 base hits per season...

This means that ARod needs to get 37 base hits more than Rolen to compensate the difference in defense... wich is approx 70pts on the batting average...

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

Just by those numbers Yankeebb a high DWar 3B should not be " Far behind 2B it's 2% different but it's like 10-15% different in compiled Hits robbed - which is why I think you said " Maybe"

Re: How Important is fielding?

Your only counting each hit as a single, he does not need 70 more hits to compensate when he hits for extra bases or Homers at a far higher rate

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

Numbers I thrown are ballpark figure...you can then evaluate if AROD's power diferencial vs Rolen is good enough... But 40 hits saved vs any other average fielder is huge... and can quite compensate a lack of pop...

Since Rolen still brings in some fairly good offense... is outstanding defense makes him outcast any 3b baseman in best of 2000 leagues...

Re: How Important is fielding?

I meant 3b far behind SS. It’s closer to 1B than SS. Just using my league as an example, since we are 5 games away from season end, our top dwar player is a 2B (3.4 dwar) who has saved 94 hits. He led last season too with 106. Next is a 3B (3.65) who has saved 88 hits, and 84 last season. The top dwar SS (3.57) has saved 82 hits, and 67 last season. The rest of the top 20 are SS, 2B, OF. There are two other comparable 3B who only saved about 50 hits. But I don’t know if I’d say they are getting shafted. The reason 1B are far behind is because they are covering 1st often and out of position. 3B get less because they play close or guard the line, so it’s harder. But we at least see that even on PC 3B and 2B can be up there with and even better than some of the SS.

Side note: these dwars are all too high. Don’t do that in your leagues!

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

I just read this thread and am worried as hell about my star SS's dWAR. I didn't even think to check that stat until I started nit-picking my draft picks.

Wish me luck!

Re: How Important is fielding?

I feel DWAR is the secret sauce to this game. Too many just look rank. As was mentioned a 90 rank player that has a large negative DWAR, is not as valuable as 60ish ranked player with a very good positive DWAR, unless you use that player as a DH

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

Fun dumb stat: Art Fletcher (5 rk with 5.06 dWAR at SS) is hitting .171 for the a Giants team I have. If take his net takeaways (56 hits robbed - 11 errors ) and add it to his hit total, he'd be hitting .350. Like I said, dumb stat - but it illustrates the value of dWAR.

- The Sheik

Re: How Important is fielding?

Comparing against other seasons does not mean its correct, your assuming someone is using A-Rod as a starting 3B or SS, what if he normally DH's and moves to a position only due to injury?

I doubt most guys can spend the time researching that so the compiled stats may be meaningless, regardless, DWar seems, in my opinion, to be overvalued because of the way the SIM utilizes it, just taking away hits is way too powerful, it should really showcase runs saved and simply getting a glove on a ball that prevents runs or turning a double play when average guys wont

Should it also take away hits? YES of course, but not all fantastic defense robs a hit, and thats the ONLY case in PC

Re: How Important is fielding?

Of course, that’s valid and so are a lot of things people would like to see. But at some point you are asking a lot of a simulated game, to manufacture every type of real baseball scenario.

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

I don't disagree YBB - and it's not like I'm asking Guy to drop everything and do something, he himself has admitted it's something he would like to PERHAPS tweak a bit, my thoughts are simply MY evaluation and not what needs to happen.

In one of your responses in another post you opined that Custom Leagues should not have so many HIGH DWar abilities, I see the issue being way worse in Custom than auto leagues.

Re: How Important is fielding?

Something has changed recently in the sim and it is obvious. There have been too many threads repeating the same issues. A few months back i would avoid high dwar players with low fielding percentages because they would get to more balls and thus generate more errors. So I targeted high dwar and high fielding% only. The change that i have noticed is that many of these high dwar players now with low fielding percentages are performing above the suggested stat lines consistently. anywhere from .10 to .40 fielding percentage higher than their stats say they should.
Something has changed with dwar to help hit deny and fielding percentage making these players more viable then what they should be. Dwar is cool and all but fielding percentage should still be more important as it factors to defense.

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

VIPJOE - it's actually worse than that, negative DWAR players are getting punished -allowing more hits than they should here's examples

https://www.pennantchase.com/lgPlay..

https://www.pennantchase.com/lgPlay..


Re: How Important is fielding?

A +3.0 dwar SS with a .955 field% is a more valuable defender than a
SS with a +2.0 dwar with a .990 field%....
despite is low fielding %, is range vastly compensate is blunders....

As for carrying a defensive liability.... it's literaly a pain in real baseball... and not many team can afford to carry a defensive liability and be successfull....

They are punishing , and righfully so...

Re: How Important is fielding?

I don't feel the sim is making errors. Remember that a +3 dWAR player is worth 3 whole WINS across a season. Think about how many hits it would take to even be worth one win.

Furthermore, all these talks about "defense not being that valuable" -- the truth is we really don't know in real life! It could turn out 10 years from now that we're actually undervaluing defense. We simply don't know!

The main problem, as has been stated countless times, is the overblown dWAR values of players in custom leagues. But I think as long as everyone is aware of the effect, it's a level playing field.

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

I seriously think that defense is undervalued in baseball...

I just remember the 2015-2016 blue jays... everybody would talk about their bat and offensive powerhouse... but in fact.. they had defensive kingpins all over the field...

Re: How Important is fielding?

defense is undervalued for sure... but the way the defensive values stack in the sim creates a lopsided values on players and in many cases eliminates offense all together. The defensive values are achieved with a team dynamic in mind. not a multiplier stacked on top of another multiplier on top of another multiplier. but again... not sure why I am posting this... we have had many threads repeating the same stuff.

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

"I don't feel the sim is making errors. Remember that a +3 dWAR player is worth 3 whole WINS across a season. Think about how many hits it would take to even be worth one win."

UMMM exactly 1 - example bottom of the 9th, 2 outs away team up by one with 2 outs men on 2nd and 3rd, Deep fly out- Erstad ROBBED a hit on that play - more than likely would have been a 2B, 3B or HR

Re: How Important is fielding?

That's not how metrics work. Otherwise, Mike Trout, having accumulated 137 hits in 2019, would be worth 137 wins.

Mike Trout is not worth 137 wins.

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

SCM, I don’t understand the post showing some negative dwar guys having 6 or less outs turned to hits in 80 games as an issue. You were saying that’s too many?

Again, the big issue is that custom leagues have all these plus 2,3,4 players when in a real baseball season that’s very rare. But a lot of custom leagues also have crazy offensive and pitching stats too. It’s just how they get to sometimes especially after long time.

Re: How Important is fielding?

it's the % thats off, a -.079 DWAR with only 95 attempts should not have a -6 DWar, granted he might have another 100 without 1 but three consecutive games he did, that's not right,

a -0.79 dwar has less than a 3% chance to turn an out into a hit - Laabs is over 6% that's not right, its not like he's a horrible fielder

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

That's not how metrics work. Otherwise, Mike Trout, having accumulated 137 hits in 2019, would be worth 137 wins.

Mike Trout is not worth 137 wins.

nope- a hit is not worth a win, unless its a game winning hit, and even then its subjective, say there's a lead-off 3B in the 9th inning of a tie game, a hit in that instance is not so much of a game winner, a deep fly out would accomplish the same thing.

Re: How Important is fielding?

A hit is a hit is a hit. I agree. You placed enormous value on a hit when you said it could be a win.

It doesn't matter when the hit occurs. We track HRs all the same, and this sim takes that into account, so regardless of situation, the same hitter facing the same pitcher will always have an equal chance of getting a hit or homering.

The same is true for defense. The percentages are always the same. If it happens to occur in the 9th inning, so be it. It doesn't mean that defensive play was worth an entire win.

The rate at which players save hits based off their dWAR seems pretty fair to me. Laabs is on pace to give up about 15 hits over a full 162 game season, which seems pretty fair to me. It makes sense that 15 hits is worth about .8 of a win.

I don't know where you are getting your 6% numbers. Can you elaborate?

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

I just think we are looking for too many tangible numbers here... Even the real DWAR numbers can be debatable.... I already specified in a previous post how in the hell can 1995 JT Snow is -2 DWAR and Mo Vaughn is -0,20 DWAR....

Let say you have the chance to either put Ichiro or Manny Ramirez in left field...

How many bloop hits or gap hits Manny Ramirez couldn't reach that Ichiro would be able to reach in a Season ??? How many extra base Ichiro would prevent vs Manny Ramirez, How many assist would Ichiro collect vs Manny, My guess is a lot... Probably enough to be a bigger game changer vs Manny...

Re: How Important is fielding?

"I don't know where you are getting your 6% numbers. Can you elaborate?"

95 Put-outs 6 Outs turned into Hits 95+6=101

6 out of 101 is 6%

It's been implied, NOT CONCRETE, that each 0.30 of DWAR is 1% either plus or minus- to either turn an Out into a Hit or a Hit into an Out.

So a -0.79 DWAR has about a 2.65 percent chance to turn an OUT into a Hit Laabs is at 6% - that's too high, now some might say, " but if you leave him out there he might not give up any more and it evens out" in three consecutive games he allowed a 2B, 3B, 3B - I thought I was replaying the last game by mistake when he allowed his 2nd consecutive 3B !! - how can you leave out a guy turning outs into 3B's??

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

Not following the logic around Laabs booting 3 balls in 3 games being a red flag for anything. Looking at his league stats, he has -6 dWar in 59 games. So he’s having a bad defensive season. But it’s not like his string of 3 in a row was indicative of how he plays every game.

That’s like saying there’s something wrong with the sim of some average Joe hits a HR in 3 straight games but only has 6 HRs in 59 games. That happens a lot in baseball, especially in SIM baseball.

Last night, playing Trouble, I rolled a 6 four times in a row. In four rolls, statistically I should only have rolled one 6 at most. I didn’t immediately assume that there was something wrong with the dice. Nor did I assume that I would keep rolling sixes for the rest of the game or for the rest of my life. Although that would be pretty sweet.

Re: How Important is fielding?

He didn't " Boot 6 Balls" those would be errors- that 6 is the amount of outs he turned into hits by misplaying them, 6 in 401 total chances

Re: Re: How Important is fielding?

PLPL512 said: "A +3.0 dwar SS with a .955 field% is a more valuable defender than a
SS with a +2.0 dwar with a .990 field%....
despite his low fielding %, his range vastly compensates..."

Is this generally accepted as true by the community of experienced players? I am new and recently drafted my team in a custom ATG league. I looked at dwar (though, in hindsight, not enough) and hardly looked at FLD% at all. Then I saw 1 or 2 people in this thread (and others) suggesting FLD% was as important or maybe even more important than dWAR. So which is it? Thanks for your help.

Re: How Important is fielding?

My take is that I compare the amount of errors given up compared to amount of hits saved. Sure a 3.0 dWAR player is more valuable in stopping hits but if they also give up more errors, in the end, they aren't really doing much for you. A 2.0 dWAR player is still pretty valuable and if they were to have the higher %FLD, then I can see that in the end, he will have saved more hits than caused hits and I would therefore like to see this player in my everyday lineup.