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MLB adds Negro Leagues to official reco


MLB adds Negro Leagues to official reco

Commissioner Rob Manfred on Wednesday bestowed Major League status upon seven professional Negro Leagues that operated between 1920 and 1948. The decision means that the approximately 3,400 players of the Negro Leagues during this time period are officially considered Major Leaguers, with their stats and records becoming a part of Major League history.

https://www.mlb.com/news/negro-leag..

Re: MLB adds Negro Leagues to official

unfortunately hank aaron only hit 5 homers in his short stint with the indiannapolis clowns, but josh gibson was said to have had over 800, but i imagine it will take some time to be researched thoroughly. wouldnt it be poetic justice if bonds lost the homer king title to this?

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yeah so in like 2021 josh gibson could have 800 homers despite being dead for at least 20 years

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As I've previously explained on this topic when it comes up from time to time, as a baseball stat geek, I can tell you that even what they've dug up and found from old scorecards, box scores, there just wasn't that good of record keeping done. They played SO MANY games, double and triple headers, "barnstorming", countless "exhibitions", that it becomes impossible to get "an official account". I'm all for these men being honored for their contributions to advancing the sport, and those select few who ended up breaking the color barrier should be heralded, saluted, and honored for their bravery, and courage. But when you're talking about "official records", that's a tough pill to swallow. You can't rewrite what you weren't there for and call it "official". There's still soooooooooo many missing games, and with it now being over 70 years ago since they all folded and so many who played, coached, kept score, broadcast, were in attendance at games now deceased, this is more of a kneejerk move to "right a wrong", but the wrongs were slavery, segregation, and discrimination. Not falsified or missing baseball statistics. They weren't partaking in MLB games. The statistical inaccuracies and variances alone defy the term "official".

The unfortunate, cold, hard truth is we will never have all the accurate numbers. Truly sad to be honest, because the achievements of your Satchel Paige's, Josh Gibson's, Cool Papa Bell's, and so many others deserve to be and SHOULD be celebrated, but simply saying something is now something else doesn't make it so.

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your right even early mlb records are hazy, the rbi wasnt considered official till like 1920, there is some debate surrounding cap ansons carreer records.

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it kinda falls into the deacon jones argument concerning sacks when they say that its estimated he had 200 plus. it wasnt kept officially so no one really knows.i will say one thing about gibson, they had a travelling negro league hall of fame exhibit stop in seattle about 10-15 years ago. they had one of his bats, biggest bat ive ever seen. in fact while looking up stats for fave team leagues ive seen ? next to some early players names !!

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A significant statistic that might get changed (pending verification of all the stats and things) is the fact that Josh Gibson is the last hitter to hit .400 in the Majors, not Ted Williams

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It's great what MLB d id righting a wrong, but a lot of this talk reminds me of an old saturday night live sketch with dan akroyd. What if elanor roosevelt was a b-52 bomber lol

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I wonder if gbacci will import Negro League statistics into pennantchase databases now that some of their statistics are officially recognized? Would be cool to see these players in Auto-Leagues or at least in their own Auto-League like the Japanese players as well as in Custom Leagues.

I have for a long time considered Martin Dihigo to be the best baseball player who ever lived,hopefully MLB will produce some records on him in his prime. No player could play as many positions as him so well!

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i have him in a custom league , not sure where the stats came from, but i do remember a few years back pl;aying in an atg league with negro leaguers. id be curious to see what kind of stats satch would have had

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Kinda weird MLB doing this The Negro Leagues did not have Bat size limits like MLB Gibson's bat would have been illegal

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yeah its like a yardstick

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The hitters never faced MLB pitchers.
The pitchers never faced MLB hitters.

All we can do is specualte. Any true baseball fan and human being truly wished that weren't the case. Because we love to have those conversations. At least I do.

But the problem is there's nothing "official" about speculation. As is previously stated here, early MLB (late 1800's) is murky and that's WITH the effort to statistically document it's existence and history.

The Negro League stories are unfortunately part what we've dug up, part "fishing story". It human nature.

But again, not "official" by any means.

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To me, stats are about consistency. And given that other leagues, like the Federal League, qualify as "major league" baseball, it only makes consistent sense to qualify the Negro Leagues as such, considering that players have long been granted "major league stats" from the previous leagues. And yeah, the record-keeping issue is a problem, but all we can do is make the best possible decision and then work within that decision to get the best stats we can.

From Ben Lindbergh:
"There’s plenty of precedent for revisions to major league stats; early AL/NL record keeping could be spotty, and even high-profile figures have been subject to change. 'Some fans were upset when the hit totals for Cap Anson, Eddie Collins, and Honus Wagner—or the win totals for Cy Young, and Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson—changed, but history is process, not product,; says Thorn. Lester is bracing for blowback. 'It’s going to create a firestorm before it is accepted,' he says, adding, 'The cynics and naysayers will claim that these stats are not valid. Which is OK—it creates more work for me, and I’m ready for the challenge.'"

There's no need to gatekeep. All we can do is recognize the league as what it should be, a "major league", and recognize that the stats will not be perfect because of the imperfect record-keeping.

Plus, we always qualify stats anyway -- for example, is it really fair to compare Kershaw's numbers to Verlander's, because one faced the DH and one didn't? Does any pitcher who dominated a team of call-ups in September of mainly prospects and minor leaguers "deserve" that dominating performance of players who probably wouldn't be at the Major League level on a good team? That's the fun part of the debate. Quality of opponent should not be an issue, and even if it were, that would be part of the debate. What should not be up for debate, however, is that the stats, whatever form we get them in, should be treated as "official".

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Remember too, they are going to exclude, best they can, exhibitions, barnstorming, and other games that weren't part of the "regular season". So some stats will deflate slightly. but overall it about dam time.

Re: MLB adds Negro Leagues to official

Thanks Htennis! I was going to bring up this same point,how can we exclude the Negro Leagues and use the Federal League and even more importantly why should we recognize players like Levi Meyerle who played under who knows what conditions then exclude players who at least played in the 20th Century under more modern conditions.

Why allow guys in Auto-Leagues who did not even use gloves and played recreation caliber baseball? Some players who were credited with hits for walks in a 19th Century season?Players Leagues and every other type of League which had at least a few of the better players are recognized despite a much lower caliber player and non-modern conditions.

In conclusion once an attempt is made to compile accurately serious stats from Negro Leagues games played in very competitive League play I believe they should be introduced on the site and would be helpful. As far as this counterargument that Negro League Players should be excluded because of the condition their games were played in I offer this question.

Does anyone really think players in 1894 were compiling stats under modern conditions? Or that players in the 1940's during the War earned those stats? Did Levi Meyerle really earn his Deadball rating as a hitter? Are you out there MR Bubbles,even you may not know who Levi Meyerle is! I do not.Anyone really think Anson earned more recognition than Josh Gibson? Preparing against those 2-man pitching staffs all Anson had to do was stay sober and he was going to be an All-Star!Which to his credit he did. I really do not see the justification for excluding Negro League Players when all these Amateurs are already floating around in Deadball Leagues.

The precedent has already been set here.

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And BTW respect to Levi Meyerle for being a good hitter in the League he was in,they did not use gloves and were hardly Professional but it is a fair conclusion that he was a fairly good athlete competing against the athletes he did and I feel confident he earned a place in baseball History rightfully.

But so did many of these Negro League Players,not trying to knock the Webmaster or advocates of these many 19th Century Leagues,only trying to show the evidence of a precedent being established that allows for Leagues of a significantly lower caliber than the 20th Century Negro Leagues.

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are you talking about the same guy who hit .492 when the pitchers were required to throw underhand ? lol

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That was part of my point,yes the same 1871 player with the 100 Rating and 1200 OPS,below .700 fielding percentage who achieved these deadball stats in non-Major League conditions according to what my definition of MLB would be.

Which poses this question,if Levi Meyerle can have his stats introduced on the site playing weak amateur players throwing underhand and with little monetary incentive why exclude much better players playing around 50 years later in what must have been a much more competitive playing field? MLB is recognizing Negro Leaguers as playing competition of a similar level as the N.L and A.L. of their time period even if these Leagues are not of that level they are most certainly Leagues superior to the Amateurs of the 1870's already eligible to play in some Auto-Leagues.How good these players were is a complex question particularly given the conditions they played under,but they were certainly better as a whole than the players in 19th Century Leagues in my opinion.

For my part I will put incorporating Negro-Leaguers on the top of my wish list and if time permits and guy has the incentive to introduce these players I am all for it😄

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i played in an all time greats league a few years back that included negro leaguers. it was a custom league and if i remember correctly they were horrible fielders

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They were using substandard equipment compared to N.L and A.L. players and were not treated as well.For example they could play game after game after game not traveling 1st Class like their counterparts in the A.L. and N.L. So it makes sense that they would have lower fielding percentages.Besides the gloves being older and more used and being exhausted regularly let us think about how often they must have seen new players on their teams and how much that affected their play? These type of things involve a lot of speculation but I read a book about Buck Leonard and he suggested that though fewer high quality players played in the Negro Leagues in his time there were many that were on a par with the top players in the N.L and A.L.

Was Buck Leonard really as good as Lou Gehrig who he was compared to?Better,worse or about the same level who really knows but what he said in his book convinced me he would have been a great player to compare to Gehrig had they played in the same League together as they should have.

Was Paige better than N.L and A.L. pitchers well Negro Leaguers thought so and so did Dizzy Dean after his All-Star Teams were routed by Paige's All-Stars! And Paige did well at an old age against Major Leaguers after Robinson broke the Color Line. Mays and many others came over from the Negro Leagues and fielded very well so I think the idea that Negro Leaguers did not play as well in the field was debunked long ago.Mays,Robinson,Campanella,Doby,etc., etc. all fielded well enough so given an opportunity I think they displayed great skill as glovemen.

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i was talkling about the league i played in, ive heard a thing or too about the negro leagues in the 50 plus years ive been following the game.great book called only the ball was white is one of the best written on the subject

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I like to read the books on individual players when reading baseball books but will check it out.

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there is also a great doc on youtube called the glory of their times about early mlb. still blows me away seeing teams going thru whole seasons with 4-5 pitchers